Their cytokine profiles were also out of whack. So I do think it's a real illness, though the rate may be exaggerated... Unclear whether the rate at which this kind of thing occurs is higher or lower than other types of infections though.
Yes, there are physical and biochemical markers of Long COVID, just as there are for other post-viral syndromes. Of course for some or many people with Long COVID, the symptoms that they feel correspond to something physical. The point is that Long COVID does not occur at a higher rate after COVID than postviral syndromes occur after other viral infections. This is the literature that I have cited. It appears to be very consistent. I have not seen a paper that compellingly shows differently. Long COVID therefore is not a new or novel kind of syndrome, the likes of which we have never seen before COVID. Rather, it is syndrome that does not significantly differ from others that we have seen before.
You seem to be suggesting that LC patients can up- or down-regulate a cluster of 13 biomarkers [1] with the power of their minds. They can alter their own immunological profiles, increase their risk factors for a range of pulmonary and cardiac conditions [2]: and this new brain-body ability in your view is passed on as 'social contagion.'
Your psychiatric explanation only makes sense if you ignore physical data. Let's not!
Incidentally, some of the same post-infection, permanently dysregulated immunological profiles found in LC patients can be found in animal experiments on mice, hamsters and non-human primates.
I again speculate that the hamsters are not talking the other hamsters into it.
Doubtless, there is a psychiatric explanation for some of the symptoms of some of the people some of the time. Plainly, LC is a post-viral syndrome with outcomes in common with other (equally complex and muddy) post-viral syndromes. But your willingness to go for a bait/inflammatory title 'Long COVID does not exist' is unfortunate.
I did not make a psychiatric explanation. I did not attribute all cases of long COVID to social contagion. I think the evidence is very strong that there is a social contagion aspect to long COVID but also that there is a physical aspect, because long COVID does impact the body long-term in ways that are documented by studies using lab tests. The point is that long COVID is not significantly different in terms of the functional impairments on a population level compared to other postviral syndromes. I am not making a comment on any individual case, and I think it is highly likely that among people who have long COVID, there is heterogeneity in the cause.
Of course your opinions are anecdotal as well. Friends who are on oxygen 24 hours a day, friends who have had strokes, friends who have had hearing loss - while these are anecdotal as well, they are not psychosomatic. Long Covid seems real to me.
I am not saying that people cannot get terrible chronic symptoms from Covid. I am saying that people do not get a unique syndrome post-Covid nor does Covid cause the post-viral syndrome at uniquely high rates.
This is so fascinating. I'm so glad you are in medicine! Curiosity and open-mindedness should be the norm. Sadly, it's not. I was a college professor for nearly 30 years and when Covid started, I was shocked to see everyone fall in line like soldiers. As if they were ready for it. It was so weird!!!!
Some people with long covid were found to have pieces of spike protein lingering in a subset of their monocytes though: https://europepmc.org/article/ppr/ppr518213
Their cytokine profiles were also out of whack. So I do think it's a real illness, though the rate may be exaggerated... Unclear whether the rate at which this kind of thing occurs is higher or lower than other types of infections though.
Yes, there are physical and biochemical markers of Long COVID, just as there are for other post-viral syndromes. Of course for some or many people with Long COVID, the symptoms that they feel correspond to something physical. The point is that Long COVID does not occur at a higher rate after COVID than postviral syndromes occur after other viral infections. This is the literature that I have cited. It appears to be very consistent. I have not seen a paper that compellingly shows differently. Long COVID therefore is not a new or novel kind of syndrome, the likes of which we have never seen before COVID. Rather, it is syndrome that does not significantly differ from others that we have seen before.
Hi Kevin,
You seem to be suggesting that LC patients can up- or down-regulate a cluster of 13 biomarkers [1] with the power of their minds. They can alter their own immunological profiles, increase their risk factors for a range of pulmonary and cardiac conditions [2]: and this new brain-body ability in your view is passed on as 'social contagion.'
Your psychiatric explanation only makes sense if you ignore physical data. Let's not!
Incidentally, some of the same post-infection, permanently dysregulated immunological profiles found in LC patients can be found in animal experiments on mice, hamsters and non-human primates.
I again speculate that the hamsters are not talking the other hamsters into it.
Doubtless, there is a psychiatric explanation for some of the symptoms of some of the people some of the time. Plainly, LC is a post-viral syndrome with outcomes in common with other (equally complex and muddy) post-viral syndromes. But your willingness to go for a bait/inflammatory title 'Long COVID does not exist' is unfortunate.
Stay well.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9895110/
[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2
I did not make a psychiatric explanation. I did not attribute all cases of long COVID to social contagion. I think the evidence is very strong that there is a social contagion aspect to long COVID but also that there is a physical aspect, because long COVID does impact the body long-term in ways that are documented by studies using lab tests. The point is that long COVID is not significantly different in terms of the functional impairments on a population level compared to other postviral syndromes. I am not making a comment on any individual case, and I think it is highly likely that among people who have long COVID, there is heterogeneity in the cause.
Of course your opinions are anecdotal as well. Friends who are on oxygen 24 hours a day, friends who have had strokes, friends who have had hearing loss - while these are anecdotal as well, they are not psychosomatic. Long Covid seems real to me.
I am not saying that people cannot get terrible chronic symptoms from Covid. I am saying that people do not get a unique syndrome post-Covid nor does Covid cause the post-viral syndrome at uniquely high rates.
This is so fascinating. I'm so glad you are in medicine! Curiosity and open-mindedness should be the norm. Sadly, it's not. I was a college professor for nearly 30 years and when Covid started, I was shocked to see everyone fall in line like soldiers. As if they were ready for it. It was so weird!!!!
Hi Dr. Hanson,
I really enjoyed this comment. You are so right about the way that people responded in lockstep. It really was so strange. Thank you for the support.
Kevin